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	<title>Comments on: PHP Web Frameworks: CakePHP Versus Symfony</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/</link>
	<description>Dustin Weber's Take On Web Development &#038; Other Random Diversions.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2011 03:40:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-993</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-993</guid>
		<description>This review is so old it should be taken off the web. A new review should be written that compares the 2 latest versions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This review is so old it should be taken off the web. A new review should be written that compares the 2 latest versions.</p>
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		<title>By: Lukasz</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-984</link>
		<dc:creator>Lukasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-984</guid>
		<description>Man, Thanks a lot for this short compare. Now I know I should start from CakePHP. I&#039;m using from year Zend Framework and it&#039;s very good but everything in ZF takes too much time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, Thanks a lot for this short compare. Now I know I should start from CakePHP. I&#8217;m using from year Zend Framework and it&#8217;s very good but everything in ZF takes too much time.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mr. T</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-959</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 21:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-959</guid>
		<description>After a while you just need to read the source, looking for doc takes more time!
Anyway both of this two frameworks sucks, they exist only because people are lazy and keep php alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a while you just need to read the source, looking for doc takes more time!<br />
Anyway both of this two frameworks sucks, they exist only because people are lazy and keep php alive.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jogos</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-954</link>
		<dc:creator>Jogos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-954</guid>
		<description>I am learning cakephp. I thisnk that the main problem is the lack of an IDE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am learning cakephp. I thisnk that the main problem is the lack of an IDE</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jpsy</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-900</link>
		<dc:creator>Jpsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-900</guid>
		<description>Jeena&#039;s remarks are the most fundamental and valuable comments in this chain. I strongly suggest to follow them. Cake is a great entry point for PHP MVC frameworks. But if you dive deeper you will find many limitations. Even the &quot;workarounds&quot; that Jeena mentioned are not complete. The beforeFind/beforeSave/afterSafe callbacks do not propagate through associated models for example, which makes them quite useless in many scenarios. Meanwhile Cake has also learned I18n, but the missing callback propagation makes any translation stop when it comes to associated tables, and so the I18n is hardly usable (talking of v1.3 of CakePHP).
Never the less Cake is a very good point to start. It gives you fast results and is just fine for smaller projects. And I am very curious how it will develop on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeena&#8217;s remarks are the most fundamental and valuable comments in this chain. I strongly suggest to follow them. Cake is a great entry point for PHP MVC frameworks. But if you dive deeper you will find many limitations. Even the &#8220;workarounds&#8221; that Jeena mentioned are not complete. The beforeFind/beforeSave/afterSafe callbacks do not propagate through associated models for example, which makes them quite useless in many scenarios. Meanwhile Cake has also learned I18n, but the missing callback propagation makes any translation stop when it comes to associated tables, and so the I18n is hardly usable (talking of v1.3 of CakePHP).<br />
Never the less Cake is a very good point to start. It gives you fast results and is just fine for smaller projects. And I am very curious how it will develop on.</p>
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		<title>By: listen to free beats</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-860</link>
		<dc:creator>listen to free beats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-860</guid>
		<description>My persistent civil libertarianism will cause an ulcer if I keep reading stories like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My persistent civil libertarianism will cause an ulcer if I keep reading stories like this.</p>
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		<title>By: dimis</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator>dimis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-822</guid>
		<description>Me also wanted to learn cakephp after my first framework CI, but I did not use it (cake).
Now I am using yii I thing is good as cake (I let down CI).
Symfony is complicated and mabe fits mor complicated projects.
I am learning Symfony now. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me also wanted to learn cakephp after my first framework CI, but I did not use it (cake).<br />
Now I am using yii I thing is good as cake (I let down CI).<br />
Symfony is complicated and mabe fits mor complicated projects.<br />
I am learning Symfony now. <img src='http://www.dustinweber.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Maxim</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-819</link>
		<dc:creator>Maxim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-819</guid>
		<description>ILOGOS&#039;s main focus is professional software engineering and the company&#039;s expertise covers all major IT engineering areas for:  IT-companies, Software outsourcing companies, IT-departments, IT-specialists. So, having learned your business, we mean and hope that our companies have common interests and common business opportunities. 
We are ready to propose offshore development for your company at hourly rates 10-15euro. 
Fulfilled projects - http://ilogos-ua.com/projects.shtml 
All our services - http://ilogos-ua.com/service.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ILOGOS&#8217;s main focus is professional software engineering and the company&#8217;s expertise covers all major IT engineering areas for:  IT-companies, Software outsourcing companies, IT-departments, IT-specialists. So, having learned your business, we mean and hope that our companies have common interests and common business opportunities.<br />
We are ready to propose offshore development for your company at hourly rates 10-15euro.<br />
Fulfilled projects &#8211; <a href="http://ilogos-ua.com/projects.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://ilogos-ua.com/projects.shtml</a><br />
All our services &#8211; <a href="http://ilogos-ua.com/service.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://ilogos-ua.com/service.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeena</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 07:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-792</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a long age CakePHP developer. And I started using Synfony too.

Symfony is far more complex than CakePHP. This can be read as a defect of Symfony (from the ones who are looking for semplicity) or a major flaw of CakePHP (from the ones who are asking a lot to the framework).
I love CakePHP: it licterally saved my life.
CakePHP lacks a lot of important features, which ae not immediately visible to every developer.
No doubts Sympfony is much more hard to learn and use. No doubts CakePHP has a set of serious flaws that may limit it&#039;s use.

CakePHP: genial, simple, quite light, easy to learn. Can be limited, too much simple
Symphony: much more hard to learn, a bit slower. But it&#039;s the state of the art of frameworks. When you start thinking Cake lacks something, take a look to Symfony, it may have what you&#039;re looking for.

Symfony has Environments, custom sets of settings to manage test, developing and production setting. Cake has nothing like that: just a simple, poor set of configuration and bootstrap files. Symfony has a very advanced system of cascading configuration that allows every kind of granularity. It&#039;s like having configuration with inheritance. Can it be useful? You judge.

Cake&#039;s ORM is really simple to learn and use and it fits most of the requirements. Most of applications don&#039;t need anything better than Cake&#039;s ORM. But it&#039;s very limited too. Cake&#039;s ORM is the biggest Cake&#039;s limitation (that&#039;s why CakePHP team is working on a new ORM engine for the next Cake&#039;s realeses, take a look to the road map). Cake&#039;s ORM manages arrays while Sympfony&#039;s one (Propel or Doctrine) offers a serious and professional ORM. &quot;Lazy loading&quot; is unavailable on Cake and developers must make use of workarounds like $Model-&gt;recursive, Bind/UnbindModel and the Containable behavior. Symfony&#039;s ORM, on the other hand, retrieves real  objects, which expose real methods, with lazy loading. Workarounds like the callback methods  BeforeFilter, BeforeSave and so on are just, ehm... workarounds. If only Models in CakePHP were real objects able to retrieve objects and not arrays, they would be completely useless. Doctrine and Proper allows Symfony&#039;s developer to completely separate Business Logic to database. On Cake a Model cannot be a real business logic object, because it&#039;s linked to a table, it executes queries and so on. This is simpler and can be very useful until you have to develop a very very advanced application. Then, Cake&#039;s ORM flaws emerge. And then you will appreciate Symfony.

My opinion is: learn and use CakePHP first. It&#039;s a magic framework and working with it is really joy. There&#039;s nothing better than CakePHP, until it stops fitting your requirements: no CodeIgniter can equal the Cake&#039;s facilities. When you start being annoyed with Cake&#039;s limitations, take a look to Symfony: you will be already prepared to concepts like conventions over configuration, standard directories structure, MVC, ORM and so on, and you will be able to appreciate the hardest parts of Symfony: they are there to overcome Cake&#039;s flaws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a long age CakePHP developer. And I started using Synfony too.</p>
<p>Symfony is far more complex than CakePHP. This can be read as a defect of Symfony (from the ones who are looking for semplicity) or a major flaw of CakePHP (from the ones who are asking a lot to the framework).<br />
I love CakePHP: it licterally saved my life.<br />
CakePHP lacks a lot of important features, which ae not immediately visible to every developer.<br />
No doubts Sympfony is much more hard to learn and use. No doubts CakePHP has a set of serious flaws that may limit it&#8217;s use.</p>
<p>CakePHP: genial, simple, quite light, easy to learn. Can be limited, too much simple<br />
Symphony: much more hard to learn, a bit slower. But it&#8217;s the state of the art of frameworks. When you start thinking Cake lacks something, take a look to Symfony, it may have what you&#8217;re looking for.</p>
<p>Symfony has Environments, custom sets of settings to manage test, developing and production setting. Cake has nothing like that: just a simple, poor set of configuration and bootstrap files. Symfony has a very advanced system of cascading configuration that allows every kind of granularity. It&#8217;s like having configuration with inheritance. Can it be useful? You judge.</p>
<p>Cake&#8217;s ORM is really simple to learn and use and it fits most of the requirements. Most of applications don&#8217;t need anything better than Cake&#8217;s ORM. But it&#8217;s very limited too. Cake&#8217;s ORM is the biggest Cake&#8217;s limitation (that&#8217;s why CakePHP team is working on a new ORM engine for the next Cake&#8217;s realeses, take a look to the road map). Cake&#8217;s ORM manages arrays while Sympfony&#8217;s one (Propel or Doctrine) offers a serious and professional ORM. &#8220;Lazy loading&#8221; is unavailable on Cake and developers must make use of workarounds like $Model-&gt;recursive, Bind/UnbindModel and the Containable behavior. Symfony&#8217;s ORM, on the other hand, retrieves real  objects, which expose real methods, with lazy loading. Workarounds like the callback methods  BeforeFilter, BeforeSave and so on are just, ehm&#8230; workarounds. If only Models in CakePHP were real objects able to retrieve objects and not arrays, they would be completely useless. Doctrine and Proper allows Symfony&#8217;s developer to completely separate Business Logic to database. On Cake a Model cannot be a real business logic object, because it&#8217;s linked to a table, it executes queries and so on. This is simpler and can be very useful until you have to develop a very very advanced application. Then, Cake&#8217;s ORM flaws emerge. And then you will appreciate Symfony.</p>
<p>My opinion is: learn and use CakePHP first. It&#8217;s a magic framework and working with it is really joy. There&#8217;s nothing better than CakePHP, until it stops fitting your requirements: no CodeIgniter can equal the Cake&#8217;s facilities. When you start being annoyed with Cake&#8217;s limitations, take a look to Symfony: you will be already prepared to concepts like conventions over configuration, standard directories structure, MVC, ORM and so on, and you will be able to appreciate the hardest parts of Symfony: they are there to overcome Cake&#8217;s flaws.</p>
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		<title>By: Lourenzo</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-778</link>
		<dc:creator>Lourenzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 07:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-778</guid>
		<description>Nice work comparing those frameworks and sharing this rich information to us.

By the way, I&#039;ve found a broken link, at the foot note on the previous post. It&#039;s pointing to a 404 page, but it should point here, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work comparing those frameworks and sharing this rich information to us.</p>
<p>By the way, I&#8217;ve found a broken link, at the foot note on the previous post. It&#8217;s pointing to a 404 page, but it should point here, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Renee Nguyen</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-754</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee Nguyen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 07:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-754</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been following along with Symfony&#039;s Jobeet tutorial for about a week now. It does seem to have a steep learning curve. I have used Ruby on Rails and loved the simplicity but just wasn&#039;t ready to switch from PHP to Ruby. With Symfony, honestly, I am confused. The tutorial is pretty clear IMO but some things take me a while to understand. Although some people will argue otherwise, I like the use of the Terminal/Command Line in Symfony.

However, after reading this article and several comments, I am going to try CakePHP with the hope that it will be easier for me to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been following along with Symfony&#8217;s Jobeet tutorial for about a week now. It does seem to have a steep learning curve. I have used Ruby on Rails and loved the simplicity but just wasn&#8217;t ready to switch from PHP to Ruby. With Symfony, honestly, I am confused. The tutorial is pretty clear IMO but some things take me a while to understand. Although some people will argue otherwise, I like the use of the Terminal/Command Line in Symfony.</p>
<p>However, after reading this article and several comments, I am going to try CakePHP with the hope that it will be easier for me to learn.</p>
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		<title>By: Kris Wallsmith</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>Kris Wallsmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-749</guid>
		<description>There is a new, extensive tutorial on symfony 1.2 available here, http://www.symfony-project.org/jobeet/. I would encourage everyone to at least read the tutorial if not follow along.

Comments on symfony are also welcome on Twitter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a new, extensive tutorial on symfony 1.2 available here, <a href="http://www.symfony-project.org/jobeet/" rel="nofollow">http://www.symfony-project.org/jobeet/</a>. I would encourage everyone to at least read the tutorial if not follow along.</p>
<p>Comments on symfony are also welcome on Twitter.</p>
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		<title>By: Alden</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>Alden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-714</guid>
		<description>All you guys have great comment about those framework. I hope to see symfony more in the future. I love those state of the art framework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you guys have great comment about those framework. I hope to see symfony more in the future. I love those state of the art framework.</p>
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		<title>By: xentek</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-540</link>
		<dc:creator>xentek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-540</guid>
		<description>Symfony is configuration hell, and relies on so many external libraries that its ability to innovate is stifled by this fact. CakePHP on the other hand is all their own code, and has a robust community behind it. The docs are incomplete, but at least they work. But between all the resources that are up on offer (google group, irc channel, the bakery, the manual, and the screen shots), you can find all the info you need. Not to mention the API docs, that will get you pretty far too. 

Zend is good too, and is coming along nicely (check out 1.5 PR). I use both Zend and Cake, and with Zend you get more flexibility over everything, including the directory structure. But of course that flexibility comes with its own responsibilities and details that cake just manages for you. Sometimes that&#039;s good (new app) sometimes its a liability (upgrading exisiting app).

It can be used as independent libraries (which is a nice feature), but when you start using the frontController, MVC, and other core libraries the difference between it and cake start to really fade. 1 important distinction to make about Zend is this: Its not a Rapid Application Development framework. RoR, Cake - those are RAD frameworks. But that doesn&#039;t make Zend &#039;not&#039; a framework. Its just a different kind of tool.

Oh and one  last thought... Cake&#039;s support of PHP4 is a feature, not a bug. And is one of the few frameworks to support it. I use 5 when and where I can, but sometimes things just take longer to upgrade, especially in an Enterprise environment... Hell, even Media Temple just got PHP5 for their Dedicated server plans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Symfony is configuration hell, and relies on so many external libraries that its ability to innovate is stifled by this fact. CakePHP on the other hand is all their own code, and has a robust community behind it. The docs are incomplete, but at least they work. But between all the resources that are up on offer (google group, irc channel, the bakery, the manual, and the screen shots), you can find all the info you need. Not to mention the API docs, that will get you pretty far too. </p>
<p>Zend is good too, and is coming along nicely (check out 1.5 PR). I use both Zend and Cake, and with Zend you get more flexibility over everything, including the directory structure. But of course that flexibility comes with its own responsibilities and details that cake just manages for you. Sometimes that&#8217;s good (new app) sometimes its a liability (upgrading exisiting app).</p>
<p>It can be used as independent libraries (which is a nice feature), but when you start using the frontController, MVC, and other core libraries the difference between it and cake start to really fade. 1 important distinction to make about Zend is this: Its not a Rapid Application Development framework. RoR, Cake &#8211; those are RAD frameworks. But that doesn&#8217;t make Zend &#8216;not&#8217; a framework. Its just a different kind of tool.</p>
<p>Oh and one  last thought&#8230; Cake&#8217;s support of PHP4 is a feature, not a bug. And is one of the few frameworks to support it. I use 5 when and where I can, but sometimes things just take longer to upgrade, especially in an Enterprise environment&#8230; Hell, even Media Temple just got PHP5 for their Dedicated server plans.</p>
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		<title>By: gaus</title>
		<link>http://www.dustinweber.com/main-page/php-web-frameworks-cakephp-versus-symfony/comment-page-1/#comment-531</link>
		<dc:creator>gaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dustinweber.com/?p=1240#comment-531</guid>
		<description>I explored the symfony framework extensively, reading (most) of the documentation, following the (few) tutorials and experimenting on my own. I have a beginner to lesser-intermediate understanding of PHP OO and MVC  implementation. I have never built a real functioning web app. I must say, that though symfony seemed hard to grasp, huge and bewildering at first, I really had no problems following the tutorials or understanding the documentation. I got it up and running using the sandbox first, then installed it on my Mac using Pear, no problems; everything worked as it was supposed to. It seems a very powerful (albeit daunting at first) framework for building web apps. I just started fooling around with CakePHP, they seem very similar. The CakePHP website and docs, bakery, etc.. seem more &#039;friendly&#039; than symfony however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I explored the symfony framework extensively, reading (most) of the documentation, following the (few) tutorials and experimenting on my own. I have a beginner to lesser-intermediate understanding of PHP OO and MVC  implementation. I have never built a real functioning web app. I must say, that though symfony seemed hard to grasp, huge and bewildering at first, I really had no problems following the tutorials or understanding the documentation. I got it up and running using the sandbox first, then installed it on my Mac using Pear, no problems; everything worked as it was supposed to. It seems a very powerful (albeit daunting at first) framework for building web apps. I just started fooling around with CakePHP, they seem very similar. The CakePHP website and docs, bakery, etc.. seem more &#8216;friendly&#8217; than symfony however.</p>
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